It seems that I have become the January Whipping-boy for some
disgruntled female gamers for a description I submitted for a game I plan to
run at TotalCon for ladies only. This is what I submitted
:
For Ladies Only—This
adventure is written specifically for the wives, girlfriends and daughters of
gamers, as well as those females wishing to delve into the field without a
lifelong commitment. It has been boiled down to the basics of role-playing as
it used to be: A sheet of paper, some dice, a pencil and some numbers on that
paper accompanied by an open mind and a sense of adventure. Ladies, come see
what the fuss is about.
Apparently that description makes me something of a
misogynist in some eyes. Why?
The adventure I have created sprang from a favor I did for
my wife. She came home one night from her Zumba class and asked if I could put
together a small adventure for some of the ladies from her class, which I did.
The ladies were interested in seeing what all the fuss, or interest, was all
about. We had a great time and I think one or two might do it again with others
of their acquaintance.
I have been a gamer for close to 53 years. Until the advent
of D&D, followed by its many clones, the gaming hobby was at least 97%
male. At GenCons in ’74 and ’75, I can recall no more than half a dozen females
(not named Gygax) present and a couple of them were clearly either bored
girlfriends or an older sister stuck with taking a younger brother for the day.
RPG’s came along and the ratio of females began
to increase. In all the adventures I have run at all the cons I have
attended since 1975, the percentage of females at my table has never, ever,
exceeded 30%. (And I am pretty sure I have never gotten a rep for being nasty
to ladies, in games or in real life.)
Since 2006, when I got back into the industry, I have been
fortunate enough to have been invited to cons all over the US, east of the
Rockies. I have had the pleasure of working the GenCon Auction for several
years. I bring this up only to point out that I have had a lot of contact with
gamers all over at least half of the country—a pretty wide polling sample.
Lots more ladies are now gaming; I think that is wonderful
because in RPG play they often bring a different perspective to the table. I
base this on my experience running games that had ladies in them. When thinking
back about parties that have survived con adventures of mine, I think the
preponderance of them contained females. Given that I am noted for lethal
games, and given the fact that many con gamers seek a glorious Viking’s death
to provide yarns for those left behind, I think the survival of those
particular parties is worthy of note.
When I have spoken to many lady gamers I know that do not
RPG, but are wicked-good boardgamers and some great minis players, not to
mention a couple of chariot racers I have lost to, their most common response
to why they don’t RPG is something having to do with being intimidated by “All
those rules and rulebooks.” (I paraphrase a little here, but the gist is true.)
When I started my first campaign in 1974, I had the only set
of rules for at least eight or nine months, and the only set of “funny” dice
for about two months. We had outrageous fun without all the paraphernalia so
common today. At my con games, the only things allowed on the table are writing
utensil, character sheet, dice and the compendiums of all the OS spells and
prayers that I put together. This is what I am rendering it back into-simple fun.
There are any number of other reasons why ladies might be
reluctant to “force” their way into what they see as a “guy thing”, or what
they have been told is a male thing.
Ridicule and snide remarks are the two I heard most often cited; just being
made generally uneasy or being made to feel an interloper are others. Some just
don’t want to embarrass themselves in a roomful of guys. (Nor would I care to
embarrass myself in a room full of ladies.)
(I have also been taken to task for calling them “lady
gamers”. A 15 year old girl playing at my table is not a “woman” yet; when she
turns 18 she is legally an adult. I would not dream of calling female gamers
“girls”, either. I always treat, and refer to, a female as a lady until she
proves otherwise.)
So, NO, I do not think all the ladies present at cons are
“just girlfriends drug along”, or any other such silly crap attributed to me or
my words.
ALL I want to do is offer a safe, fun and easy intro into
RPG’s for those of the female sex that might be interested in learning from
someone that has been doing it longer than most.
Why do some people see insult and offense when none is
meant, or inferred? The little bit about
“lifelong” commitment should have tipped you that I had my tongue at least
partially in cheek.
Another question: why do some people take to social media
without first talking to the individual involved? How dare they presume what my
motives are?
By the way, I hold a Master's in Education; I am reasonably certain that I know what I am doing.
By the way, I hold a Master's in Education; I am reasonably certain that I know what I am doing.
Wow! In less than twenty-four hours of the description for the game being posted someone managed to be offended. Society just keeps sinking lower and lower.
ReplyDeleteI'm a bit taken aback at the thought that someone claiming to hold a Master's in Education, cannot tell the difference between plural and possessive nouns. (Hint: RPGs is plural; RPG's is possessive)
ReplyDeleteI'm taken aback that you would make such a criticism anonymously.
DeleteMaybe you should learn grammer before taking cheap insults on someones blog. Apostophes are the correct way to make acronyms, numbers, and some other ackward words plural.
DeleteAckward?
DeleteAnon: "Grammer?"
DeleteThe apostrophe "s" is used to indicate the plural after an initialism, such as "RPG," according to some grammar books and style guides. Mr. Kask is not in error here.
DeleteWhat style guide are you referring to? I'm an editor by trade and all the major publications and guide books recommend simply adding an s (without apostrophe) after initialisms and acronyms.
DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteI just remember looking it up once and finding it in a number of places--I'm afraid I don't recall which ones. The New York Times used to use it. Yes, the newer major style guides don't recommend the apostrophe after initialisms and acronyms to indicate the plural. It's still just a matter of style, though, so Mr. Kask is correct regardless of the convention he chooses to use.
DeleteA fairly well known OSR personality was offended that Merle ran an all ladies game at NTRPG last June. My wife was one of those players and it was the most fun she's has at the gaming table. It was also her first session without me as a crutch ;)
ReplyDeleteThere were some dismissive comments made about my wife made by the same person.
It's all about the agenda. If you aren't forwarding the specific agenda you are the enemy.
You would think bringing more women into the world of RPG gaming would be a good thing, but the method is more important than the results to these people.
Do what you know is right.
I'm glad to see that the PC Thuggery is being exposed for what it is. Great going Tim!
ReplyDeleteDon't let the cheap shots and feigned indignation stop you from keeping gaming fun for all.
Tim, if you repel your target audience with your game blurb, maybe it's time to edit the pitch. But hey, it looks like there will be no shortage of angry men to take up vacant seats if you have any.
ReplyDeleteBut nobody said your where a misogynist. They were only put off by your event description. No need to be super defensive, if you wish you can easily edit your description to sound less patronizing to your target audience. Feedback is often a good thing.
ReplyDeleteYes, it's a good goal (as Erik Tenkar points out) - but if you can be more effective in your approach, why not make small adjustments to that end? This isn't about "political correctness", it's about treating people with respect & dignity so that they feel valued in what you're doing (which is definitely worthwhile IMO).
DeleteI presented this scenario to my wife: For some reason, she is stuck going with me to a gaming convention. I read the description of your "ladies only" event to her, and I asked her what she thought about it. She laughed and found the event both ironic and insulting. She didn't like that the one event that targeted women assumed that they needed or wanted simplified rules. However, Cedric P makes a good point. My wife did not call you a misogynist either, and if the event had said "For Beginners" (since beginners often benefit from simplicity) rather than "For the Ladies," she would have had no problem with it. P.S. She hated "ladies." Really.
ReplyDeleteI agree. You should have targeted this for beginners, not just for women.
DeleteIf I ran an event exclusively for white men, would that be OK?
As the wife of a gamer and a longtime tabletop gamer myself, I think the word beginners would have been a good addition to this description as well. The way this is written, it seems to invite all ladies to the table as beginners. The implication there is that women at the con are only there as girlfriends, sisters, or wives of male gamers; not that we might be there because we want to game at cons.
DeleteI think inviting all beginners (female and male), be they branching into a new type of gaming, or simply trying to pass time while their sibling/partner/whoever has a great time doing what they love would go over a lot better. It's a tweaking of wording more than anything else. Which may sound minor, but can make the difference between people being drawn to or drawn away from a particular event.
Exactly this. While you have the best of intentions, the problem here was in the delivery of your message.
Delete"By the way, I hold a Master's in Education; I am reasonably certain that I know what I am doing."
ReplyDeleteJust to point out, Bill Cosby has a doctorate in education and I wouldn't assume that makes him automatically right when it comes to the way women should be treated. Would you?
Cosby's "doctorate" was a thesis on Fat Albert.
DeleteWritten by someone else.
Deletehttp://www.deathandtaxesmag.com/232722/fat-albert-writer-bill-cosby-paid-others-to-write-his-ph-d-thesis/
Hey Hey Haaay.
(though really, the source is one tweet, and you should never just believe what you read on the internet)
"Why do some people see insult and offense when none is meant, or inferred? The little bit about “lifelong” commitment should have tipped you that I had my tongue at least partially in cheek."
ReplyDeleteNo insult may be *intended*, but that does not mean that no insult has been *given*.
Exactly Ian. Thank you!
DeleteI am one of those "disgruntled female gamers" you are talking about.
ReplyDeleteA lot of this storm in a teacup could have been avoided if the offended parties had approached the convention organisers and simply advised them that they found the blurb to be offensive. Organisers don't like that kind of heat. Vendors don’t want to lose business. Somebody will generally do something pretty darned quick to fix the issue.
ReplyDeleteInstead of attempting to undo any perceived harm on the spot, people resorted to cheap shots on the internet to make out that he's a condescending sexist. I now even see comparisons being made with Bill Cosby!
Instead of addressing the perceived issue, all this is doing is using hysterical and emotive language to insult Tim and anyone who would happen to agree with him, in order to bully them into submission.
I disagree that the event should have been targeted at beginners of either sex. In both government and industry, it is now perfectly acceptable to try to recruit females to rectify the imbalance in numbers. Females are under represented in so many areas. We even try to get women to play more types of sport. I see no reason why it should not be okay to try to specifically recruit female gamers. As for Tim's comments about life-long commitment - I get that too. It shouldn't take ownership of the latest PHB and DMG and an hour long session to generate a character to take a look. I miss the days of a 64 page rules book and being able to play a new game from scratch in under half an hour.
I will make a few observations about the arguments put forward in this:
The use of the term “Ladies” is still common in many countries. Are toilets still marked "Ladies" and "Gents" in the US at all? It is still customary to address guests at weddings as "Ladies and Gentlemen" or at other social functions. The term may be a little archaic now, but is still perfectly acceptable in most of the English speaking world. Your own military still encourages “Military Courtesy” and the term “Ladies” is also customary within the military when addressing unescorted females. Ex military people have a tendency to slip back into military forms of courtesy. I hope that they don’t get slapped down for that.
I also read above that somebody has said that this wasn't about "political correctness". Yet we see somebody drag race into this:
"If I ran an event exclusively for white men, would that be OK?"
Of course not is the obvious answer - but we still see government and industry target minorities for recruitment? This argument is invalid and decisive. Besides, white men aren’t exactly under represented at the gaming table, are they?
We also have another person talk about "no shortage of angry men". While Tim has been trying to recruit female gamers, this statement also does what Tim has been accused of doing - it belittles any male gamer who happens to agree that there is an imbalance of males to females at the gaming table and stereotypes those males as frustrated or angry sexists. This is an old Alinsky tactic used to ensure that your target looks guilty, no matter what. Another cheap shot designed to end debate and allow PC thuggery to continue unabated. It implies that anyone who supports that Tim’s aim might be worthy is “unreasonable” as they are merely “angry men".
On the up side, at least isn’t an older Australian - he may have called people "Blokes" and "Sheilas".
Forgive the typos above, for some reason "decisive" was inserted instead of "divisive". Autocorrect, eh? Still, fodder for the grammar Nazis who'd like to target spelling instead of the issues.
ReplyDeleteA thought occurred to me after writing my reply above about motives and prevention. Why wouldn't somebody want to fix a problem at the source? Why post on social media, instead of raising it with the organiser or the vendor? Especially if the goal is to make it more friendly to female gamers and end sexism.
I am posting here because I'm in Australia and can't go there to deal with it properly. This is my only recourse. But why would an attendee at the con not do so in person?
Firstly, it's low personal risk. You don't run the risk of somebody saying "No it isn't sexist!" Nobody at the Con will see your effort fail. You run no risk of losing face, and that's important on the internet too, isn't it?
That's one of the main reasons nerd-rage seems to know no end ;)
The next problem with that is that you don't get "seen" doing it if you fix it at the source. You don't get the Kudos. You aren't "heroic" if there's no witness to the deed in effect. You don't get known as a "Champion" of the cause by quietly fixing the problem, if it truly exists.
There's also a really ugly truth to the flip side of this kind of action.
Consider this:
Tim is one of the "Elder Statesmen" of gaming. He has been publicly accused of sexism and if he stops running his games as a result of this, he'll be seen as "No longer supporting women gamers." Tim will be damned either way. This will most likely deter other male gamers from trying to run similar events. If a female gamer steps up, it further heightens the issue as male gamers are not seen to be welcoming of the concept, or at the very least making an effort to do so.
This creates an environment ripe for a so-called champion to step in and make a name for herself.
The other ugly truth is that this magnified storm in a teacup argument has reinforced or exagerated the perception held by some of there being sexism in the RPG gaming community, and that it is held by at least one of the elder statesmen and he's supported by various evil-minded henchmen and vile goons. The absence of visible elder stateswomen should not be lost upon an audience willing to believe it.
Instead of confronting the issue and resolving it, by posting on social media and smearing Tim, it's relatively easy to capitalize on the issue and look like a champion for women's rights and ending sexism in the RPG gaming community, all the while reinforcing (and thus deterring new female gamers from the hobby) that it is a sexist hobby. In essence, this is the argumentative equivalent of a self-licking ice-cream.
Tim's wording isn't exactly "Gamergate" material. Championing the cause in this manner has only done more harm than good in the long term.
The usual retort from those without further recourse to rational debate or for those who's premise falls apart under scrutiny is to publicly announce a boycott of the product and continue the smear campaign on other forums.
when i was a kid, my friends were like "oh, we're playing this great game, but you're a girl, you wouldn't get it." so I went to the comic book shop three towns over and asked if I could play there. and I played through video chat with some camp friends in california. and I played on a message board. and I played D&D (shelling out for the online database and character creator) Fate, Vampire: The Masquerade, and whatever I could talk my friends into.
ReplyDeleteBut I guess girls don't play RPGs.
Dude, I've been gaming for 30 years, D&D and many other systems. I've been an active GM and world designer for most of that time. I'm a woman who learned to play from the girls I was friends with. And yes, I resent the assumption that we delicate little flowers can't play with you big strong boys because we what? Don't have man parts? I mean, come on. It's ludicrous. If you want to write something for neophyte gamers, be inclusive and acknowledge that some men are neophytes too. If you want to write for women who game, write for gamers, and that'll do fine.
ReplyDeleteAbigail,
ReplyDeleteReally?
"Delicate little flowers"?
"Don't have man parts"
I don't recall Tim saying anything along those lines… By throwing in words that Tim didn’t express, such as “delicate little flowers” and “don’t have man parts”, it looks like you’ve just tried to make out that he’s a sexist pig.
From the words you’ve put into Tim’s mouth, should we be asking if it is you who just wants to perpeuate that negative image of male gamers?
It also sounds like you are relying upon emotive language to try to win the argument. Not to worry, you’re in good company - there’s plenty who’ll stoop as low as it takes to win an argument at any cost.
I gather Tim’s aim was to introduce female gamers to the hobby and lower the learning curve to speed the process up from months of investment of personal time to being able to take part in a quick intro session "on the day”.
A try before you buy scheme. I like the idea of aiming it at recruiting female gamers in this case because it is already difficult to attract female gamers to the hobby becuse of the negative stereotypes perpetuated by some individuals.
Apparently by people like you.
There is a stigmatism to gaming.
There is a perception that it is a male-dominated hobby.
There is a stereotype of overweight, socially awkward geeks associated with the hobby.
Trying to address this by trying to counter those stereotypes is not a bad thing to do, is it?
I think you mean "implied" (helpful hint: you are the author. You imply; readers infer. That's how it works. Getting your money's worth out of that master's degree, I see!).
ReplyDeleteAnd you may not see insult and offence, but it's certainly implied: you imply that you believe that women attending a convention would themselves not be gamers, but the wives/girlfriends/daughters of the guys who dragged them along; you refer to women as "ladies", which is rather patronising; you imply that women need to have things as simplified as possible just in case they're too difficult for their poor little ladybrains...I'm sorry, but your piece comes across as horribly patronising and sexist. I am sorry that you are old and do not understand the ways the world has changed around you since the 1970s.
I'm "old"? I'm not sorry I am.
DeleteThe great thing about the English language is that it does evolve, but not that fast. Add new words? Sure. Change of meaning occurs over time with repeated use.
I see, as expected, the gramma Nazis are at it again since the argument is lost. Still, it beats confronting the actual issues.
ReplyDeleteThe Anon user above me points out that it found the use of the term "ladies" "patronising". That is in the eye of the beholder. The Anon user also falsely claims that the author implied that the "ladies" needed the rules simplified for their "poor little lady brains". That's just a case of being over-sensitive and spoiling for something to complain about. I can only assume that this suited your aims to twist and misinterpret.
Somebody has already made the point of putting words in people's mouths.
I too am sorry.
I am sorry that Anon, in their self-entitled outlook is so inflexible as to be unable to see when somebody is trying to make an effort to connect with a younger generation.
I am sorry that users like Anon above actively work to discourage that by slapping people who make the effort down, rather than encouraging others to try.
I am sorry that Anon above is typical of the problem of the self-entitled younger generation who never had to learn to make compromises for others, or to respect anything other than their own rights.
I am sorry that people like Mr Kask will be bombarded by vacuous rhetoric and be falsely accused of sexist behaviour by such self-serving, insincere clowns.
I'd like to address an issue that is sadly lacking here.
ReplyDeleteThe ratio. I see plenty of bashers saying Mr Kask should write for beginner gamers. Okay, but how does that address the imbalance in the ratio?
He's a "celebrity gamer" who offers to run a game for new gamers. If 10% of those who sit at his table are female (ladies, if you prefer) then he's only recruited potentially a couple. He could change the ratio far more effectively by achieving a few tables of 100% female gamers.
What more practical solution do the Kask-bashers offer?
Silence on that topic, I bet.
Except everyone who thinks the reason that people are complaining is that the game is targeted at newbie women is misunderstanding the problem, tremendously. The real issue, as many people have pointed out, is that the language used in the blurb perpetuates stereotypes about women in gaming. That's it.
DeleteAnd blown right out of proportion to suit the agenda of a few vocal bullies.
DeleteAnonymous 9:26 above, the language doesn't say that at all. The real issue remains to be the way people have deliberately twisted the intent of the original words. Tim Kask has made that very clear.
DeleteI note that there still has not been a single person step up to offer a more practical solution that would increase the ratio of male to female gamers the than deliberately working to recruit female gamers. The false argument about offering to newbie gamers regardless of sex still doesn't change the ratios.
That's because it's a red herring meant to distract from the real issue of inadvertently erasing women gamers, the real reason anyone's upset. It's like if people are talking about the quality of hamburgers in a particular area and you start asking about chicken sandwiches.
DeleteAs there are currently plenty of enthusiastic female gamers in the mix, maybe try talking to them? Find out what they like and what they don't, and listen when a vocal group of female gamers says that X message doesn't feel welcoming or inclusive to them.
DeleteReactions like Kask's here, where instead of trying to amend bad wording he chose to defend himself and thus deny that there was an issue does not help. It tells female gamers that their complaints, when directed at this particular person, are more likely to go unanswered; and that is not a positive message.
Nothing wrong with trying to recruit female gamers. But when your attempt draws criticism and hostility from female gamers, maybe it's time to reconsider what sort of message you're (inadvertently) sending.
Sounds practical, but implementation may be difficult.
ReplyDeleteEspecially since the negatives are trying to ensure nothing of the kind happens.
What is truly sad is that this petty issue is taking up time. Gamer Gate is dealing with real concerns and issues such as sexism, threats of violence, threats of death and rape and yet people here are detracting from real concerns with this petty-minded drivel.
Really, the biggest complaint here is that Mr Kask called some women, "Ladies" and was offering a simpler version of the game to speed up things?
Talk about 1st World problems.
Get a life, get a perspective. You people are not relevant.
No, the complaint is that the ad invokes, inadvertently, stereotypes about women in gaming. I don't see the problem here. Why would anyone want to insult a group they want to reach out to? If I did this I would go "My bad" and correct my mistake. Nobody is asking for Kask's head on a platter. People just aired their annoyance on Facebook. There's one group who's overreacting and it's not the people who spoke out.
DeleteYou are right. There are people over-reacting.
DeleteThe people likening him to Bill Cosby, and putting words in his mouth such as "Delicate little flowers", and "Don't have man parts" are two great examples.
This is just straight-out PC Bullying. This damages the RP Gaming industry and makes attracting more female gamers nigh-on impossible.
No, they did not liken him to Bill Cosby. They used Bill Cosby as an example of how having an advanced education doesn't make someone an expert on interacting with "females" and may not necessarily "know what they're doing."
DeleteWait, did someone actually just say this petty, irrelevant, overblown, pointless, and divisive nonsense is distracting from the real issues being tackled by the petty, irrelevant, overblown, pointless, and divisive nonsense of Gamergate, and then call us irrelevant?
DeleteGAMERS UNITE!
Ladies only games are a positive in my opinion along with feedback from those who have run ladies only games.
ReplyDeleteDon't bow to peer pressure and continue to do what is right.
Women only games are great.
DeleteImplying that women aren't gamers is less great.
Some women aren't gamers. What's wrong with admitting that? Oh, I see, you were trying to find fault with it so you could detract from any support Mr Kask was receiving. Looks like you are grasping at straws.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Edwin - Keep trying Mr Kask!
A gentleman uses the term 'Ladies' and Tim is just that. He's also from a different generation. Might I add that the game he runs historically uses 'Ladies' in the very texts that the game comes from.
ReplyDeleteThis 'outrage' is an online mafia attempt to push political agenda onto the tabletop gaming community by force. I, for one, am tired of the childishness of that group. If you don't like what Tim said, don't play in his game. That simple. But threats to flip tables at conventions are so ridiculous that those people suggesting it need professional help.
Before someone uses the words "ladies" or "females", the first question they should ask themselves is if, in the same context, they would use the words "gentlemen" or "males". You'd be surprised by how often they wouldn't.
DeleteKnown Tim for a few years now. He'd use Gentlemen where it applied. What is happening here is a witch hunt.
DeleteIs it a witch hunt, or is it people airing their frustrations? I don't see anyone calling for Kask to be fired, lose income, be injured or so in. The very few people who have advocated, less than seriously, for disruption of this game, have been argued against by the majority of the people speaking out.
DeleteIn fact, I'd argue that the focus on the one huy who threatened to flip a table is so you don't have to engage with the actual argument.
DeleteComing from the coward hiding being Anonymous...you have fun with that....
DeleteJust because they're anon does not mean their facts are incorrect or concepts unworthy of discussion. Focusing on the people and not the ideas has been at the heart of this problem for some time.
DeleteYour type are prone to retaliation. Hell, you personally said now it's war. Am I to take that as a Bugs Bunny thing or as seriously as you've taken the dread tableflip?
ReplyDeleteThis is a charged issue, so inflammatory escalation is really easy, but also counter-productive because Stacy and Tim (so far as I know) want the same thing, more women in gaming.
ReplyDeleteStacy didn't call Tim a misogynist, only that his post offended her.
From what I understand, Stacy and others have found (from their own experiences and from talking to other would-be OSR women gamers) that the main hurdle for women is not rules complexity but condescension.
One of the pernicious problems with structural sexism is that it's possible to carry it on without realizing it, even while trying to do the opposite. This happens in lots of ways:
- Treating women's opinions and feelings as up for debate (e.g. "You were wrong to be offended, let me explain why what I did was actually /more/ respectful than what you're saying I should do instead.")
- Requiring women to lodge their complaints in a manner that causes no disruption to the existing culture (e.g. "The way you drew attention to my supposed sexism is appalling and inappropriate.")
- Including women in ways that reinforces their perception as less able or legitimate participants than men.
- Defending the tacit belief that groups that are overwhelmingly male are nevertheless equitable and meritocratic in practice, and that women are merely missing the suitable invitation.
Anyone who thinks Tim decided to do a boiled down back to basics game because he intended to have a female audience, obviously doesnt know Tim Kask... That's how he prefers RPGs.
ReplyDeleteAlso, telling people (regardless of sex) that they shouldn't be offended, and taking this debate public are classic Tim Kask. It has nothing to do with the subject matter.
Most importantly, he wrote the RPG for a specific audience... So what if you are not part of that audience? Good for you. Move on. Every con I've been to has some bored wives, girlfriends, and daughters rolling their eyes as the person they have accompanied is geeking out over something they just don't get. He wrote this for them. If you are a master RPGer who happens to be female, don't get offended. Why? BECAUSE THIS WASNT INTENDED FOR YOU!
Tim- don't change a damn word. If someone is going to get that bent out of shape over just the blurb, you really don't want them taking up gaming space anyway.
I really think the core issue is the "wives, girlfriends, daughter" thing. I'm 100% certain that if that wasn't part of the write-up, no one would have cared. Everything else is being called out because of that, it's an additional "icing on the cake" sort of thing. And Stacy is right... if women don't play OSR RPGs, (which isn't true, but this doesn't help) it's because of not wanting to deal with condescension.
DeleteMy wife (whom I wrote about earlier) is not a gamer, is in her mid-40's, does not describe herself as a feminist, is a libertarian-leaning independent, and yet her first reaction was the same as Stacy's.
ReplyDeleteI posted what I did to offer one more data point, to give Tim and anyone else one more woman's perspective.
My perspective is this:
Most of the people, myself included, commenting on this who are critical of Tim's write-up are only attacking the write-up, not Tim. There is no "witch hunt." I will not avoid Tim in the future, I will not boycott his products, and if I attend a convention where he is playing or running a game, I might even end up happily sitting at the same table, if the game sounds interesting.
Love all the "anonymous" posts. No matter what your thoughts are take responsibility for them.
ReplyDeleteI agree with most of the other polite criticisms. The intent is great, the sales pitch is flawed and unfortunately comes off as condescending. If it had been phrased as an invitation to beginners and to people there with a "more hardcore/experienced" gaming SO or relative, it might have more successfully captured the desired audience.
ReplyDeleteIf you truly want to create a safe space for women to have fun, then you should be listening to the women who are telling you what was problematic about your words and actions. There are a number of women gamers you don't see because mentalities like this scare them away from group events like cons.
ReplyDeleteNow that I think about it, I find the whole premise somewhat flawed. Why would playing with a complete stranger at a con help the wives, girlfriends and daughters of _gamers_ get what all the fuss is about when they didn't from their husbands, boyfriends, and brothers? The inspiration for the session was based on a group of women who were completely unfamiliar with the hobby, but I can't see how that would even be close to the case with relatives of gamers, especially if they're attending a con with them.
ReplyDeleteThere's no way to win here. Should I be referred to as a lady? A female? A woman? A girl?
ReplyDeleteMaybe we should be glad all of these terms are RESPECTFUL!
Unless you'd rather be called b****es and hoes.
There's no way to win here. Should I be referred to as a lady? A female? A woman? A girl?
ReplyDeleteMaybe we should be glad all of these terms are RESPECTFUL!
Unless you'd rather be called b****es and hoes.
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